A reader writes in:
Hi Pat. Hope this finds you well. I wanted to ask you about some interactions I had with a girl I know socially and how if at all to proceed. I will try and be as detailed as possible, but if you feel anything is missing, ask and I will try my best to answer. It’s a longish read; please feel free to use this as you wish in the newsletter, X, etc.
For context, I have known this girl, S, socially for about a year now. We are in two groups, a young conservatives group and a symphony young professionals group; both are things I found organically on my own and that she is on the boards of. We also have similar educational (accounting/finance masters degrees from flagship public schools in our state) and professional backgrounds (Big 4 Accounting firms).
I don’t think she was interested in me until February or so when she realized I was in both groups. She since has made numerous overtures towards me both with physical indicators (playing with her hair, getting grabby with my forearm and bicep) and innuendo (saying she has had a hard time finding a man with similar interests). Also, she ALWAYS looks at me no matter who she is talking to and if we are together in a group conversation her body and feet are almost always turned towards me regardless of who is speaking. I have always been on the fence about my feelings towards her…On the one hand, I do find her physically attractive; she has a nice aristocratic figure and an attractively Dutch face and I do like that we have similar interests. On the other hand, I’m repelled by the masculine energy she gives off. As such, I have never fully committed to asking her out, let alone following through with that.
Here is what happened last weekend:
Friday night the young conservatives club had a happy hour as part of a summit that members from across the State are present at (normally its just people from our city). I mingle with the other people I know and eventually approach her and say hi. We make small talk and then I steer the conversation towards submitting an application to be on the board of the symphony group. She gives me some details about the process and then says something like “But that wouldn’t be decided until June, and I probably won’t be here then.” I didn’t ask what that meant at the time as it didn’t seem as being important; maybe it isn’t. Eventually some other board member from some other chapter steals her away to talk business, so I mingle a little bit more and then leave.
Saturday morning the young conservatives conference has a breakfast thing. I’m sitting at a different table, minding my own business talking about the Paul/Tyson fight when she walks by, squeezes the shit out of my bicep, and gives out a hearty “Good Morning!” I respond with good morning and that is all during the day as we are in different breakout sessions.
Saturday night the symphony club has a concert/after party event. She walks in late (very unusual for her) with another guy who seemingly came out of the blue; I had never heard her or anyone else mention anything about another guy before. My initial suspicion is he is an orbiter from her church. During the first half of the concert, they sit in their assigned seats a few rows down. He tries to make some moves, but she very assertively rebuffs him each and every time. At intermission I get up to get a drink; walking right past them in line as I go and hangout with some other people.
After intermission, they sit down in the empty seats right in front of mine at her behest. He tries to make moves once or twice again but eventually gives up. I also notice that she is the one controlling the drink and deciding when he can have a sip.
I ignore her at the after party and instead talk to some new members of the club. One of the guys I talk to is into hunting so we really bro out over that; S and orbiter are looking at me from a distance the whole time and see this conversation though they don’t know what it’s about. They also see that the photographer who was hired to shoot the event wanted to take some solo pics of me.
I leave after about an hour or so as I have to get up early the next day for my dad’s baptism, but I tell people I haven’t been to Dirty Sixth (a nightlife district near the afterparty venue) in a while and am going to check it out.
I don’t pay any attention to S and orbiter during the afterparty but every time I glance their way, they both look miserable and S is looking me. Also S doesn’t seem to spend much time introducing him to other people.
It’s clear that whatever this relationship S has with this guy is very strongly in her frame and not his.
I think S is still interested and was engaged in a high-pressure sales tactic of sorts or was trying to use jealousy to manipulate me into taking some kind of action.
My only plan going forward is to meet more girls by going to social Latin dance and two-step classes that I found and starting to read some of my poetry at an open mic night that a girl in a completely different group I’m in told me about.
I would appreciate your opinion about how I handled things with S, how I should sort through my feelings about S, and whether or not I’m cooked when it comes to having a shot with her. If I’m cooked I’m just going to ignore her entirely from now on.
—
Hey brother, thanks for the question.
I don’t think you’ve messed anything up with her — yet. But it’s also clear both of you are playing games. I’m not sure if she brought this guy around to make you jealous or not (it’s a strong hypothesis, although there could have been a myriad other reasons she went out with him), but it’s pretty apparent she likes you regardless. The main question at this point is how much of it is about power for her (versus clean attraction), and even more so, for you.
What I mean by this is, it’s not clear what you want from this girl. You’re physically attracted to her, and she’s an important, influential person in your circle (which matters much less in male attraction than female, but it still means something). But she’s also extremely masculine — I think any questions about how she would behave in a relationship were put to rest by how she acted on that date with that guy. She’s not one of those “boardroom bitches” who can compartmentalize being a ballbuster in business while being submissive romantically. She likes to be in control, 24/7.
Which really begs the question for me as to what you’re trying to achieve from all of this. What is the impulse behind the attraction?
Obviously, there’s her looks — that is what makes it even under consideration. But aside from that, I’m not sure you actually want to be with this girl. You just want to conquer her. It’s a battle of wills, and you want to be the one who wins.
This is what I mean when I say this attraction doesn’t appear to be clean — it’s “dirty attraction.” It’s more about power than true desire.
I don’t think you’re oblivious to the opportunities she’s given you already. You clearly understand game — if anything you’re hyperaware of how your actions and incidental events (like the photographer taking shots of you) make an impression on her; getting her interest is very much your goal. I understand she’s been a bit aggressive, touching your biceps etc. — and I know this stuff can make a guy feel like he is the prey, almost making him pull back (it turns you more feminine). But the signals are still there. Her flirting might be clumsy, but it’s overt — you said yourself that you think she became interested in February (almost a year ago!) — so I don’t know why you haven’t made a move to date. It would be literally as easy as just inviting her someplace you’re going to, and isolating.
But it seems instead you’ve been playing a cat and mouse game with her, enjoying the swing of investment back and forth, rather than being decisive and executing. You are either doing this because you care more about her attention than actually dating her (big effeminate trap for a man learning game), or because you actually like her more than you care to admit, and are worried you might ruin things if you move forward.
Either way it doesn’t matter. You need to make a move or turn things more platonic and move on. Clarity is long overdue for both of you, and as the man, that’s your job — even when the woman is a bit assertive like this one.
So to reiterate my answer to your question, no, it’s not too late. But you need to determine what your goals are in this, and move forward accordingly. Game is a great thing to understand and practice, but game without purpose is little more than soap opera drama. It’s a waste of time and energy.
And if you’re still confused about how to move forward with this woman? And you find this is a problem you have in general?
Best to get some coaching.
-Pat
